From owner-asatru@home.ease.lsoft.com Mon Nov 24 19:44:02 1997 Received: (from mail@localhost) by ratatosk.squirrel.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22152 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.ease.lsoft.com(206.241.12.9) by ratatosk.squirrel.com via MultiNet SMTP Gateway (V1.3) id sma022150; Mon Nov 24 19:43:40 1997 Received: from home (206.241.12.9) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.5B100350@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:17 -0500 Received: from HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM by HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 6209530 for ASATRU@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:16 -0500 Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (198.81.19.148) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.5A47AA40@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:15 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA17493; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971124224335_596058199@mrin38> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:43:35 -0500 Reply-To: The Asatru List Sender: The Asatru List From: "William P. Reaves (Leave off the quotes.)" Subject: Saxo and Tacitus and grains of salt Comments: To: anjpeck@gte.net To: ASATRU@home.ease.lsoft.com Status: RO Content-Length: 8528 Lines: 143 Hail Anj, This one's for you :) Keep it close when reading Saxo, and as you read it, remember the rules of Comparitive Mythology, you must have at least two confirmations from seperated sources, where borrowing is not a likely factor. (In Comp Myth that's one from the east and one from the west). In regard to Christian "histories" of the heathen age and eyewitness account texts (such as Saxo and Tacitus), borrowing from Heathen sources, if it can be demonstrated, is a plus. It is likely that Saxo borrowed from Heathen songs as we find Latin paraphrases of Old Norse poems in parts of his text. Thus that he had a heathen source for his work is likely. When you find agreement in two or more sources (preferably more) or when they compliment each other~you are probably hitting on true heathen myths. Rydberg compares many documents before drawing conclusions~ How many scholars do this in this field? I see a lot of "research" based on the interpretation of a single passage, word, or poem and , if the subject is even addressed, any conflicting passages, poems, etc are dismissed as "variants," "borrowing," "christian influenced". etc. Question the source! In regard to Tacitus, much of what he says in regard to custom, dress, social structure, and even the gods agrees with mythological lore we still possess and archeological and historical evidence. Because you do not find a Nerthus named in the lore does not mean she isn't there. Does the description fit anyone we know? Can the name be explained? What about Tuisto, the Alcis, etc? I say Ja! Remember salt is necessary for the body, so keep eating those grains. I will do a chapter by chapter anaylsis of Tacitus giving mythic citation if you please. That is a new approach, no? (You guys are giving me all kinds of ideas for articles!) He's a better source than you may realize. Anyway here's Ole Vik's approach to Saxo: (There must be an echo in here :) "The first 9 books of Saxo form a labyrinth constructed out of the myths related as history, but the thread of Ariadne seems to be wanting. <<>>. On this account, it might be supposed that Saxo had treated the rich mythical materials at his command in an arbitrary and unmethodical manner; and we must bear in mind that these mythical materials were far more abundant in his time than they were in the following centuries, when they were to be recorded by the Icelandic authors <>. This supposition is however, wrong <<>>. "Saxo has examined his sources methodically and with scrutiny and has handled them with all due reverence when he assumed the desperate task of constructing, by the aid of the mythic traditions and heroic poems at hand, a chronicle spanning several centuries---a chronicle in which 50 to 60 successive rulers were to be brought on stage and off again--- while myths and heroic traditions embrace but few generations and most mythic persons continue to exist through all ages. In the very nature of the case, Saxo was obliged, in order to solve this problem, to put his material on the rack <<>; BUT a thorough study of the above-mentioned books of his history shows that he treated the delinquent with consistancy. " The simplest of the rules he followed was to avail himself of the polyonomy with which the myths and heroic poems are overloaded <>>, and to do so in the following manner: "Assume that a person in the mythic or heroic poems had three or four names or epithets (he may have had a score). We will call this person A and the various forms of his name A', A", and A"'. Saxo's task of producing a chain of events running through many centuries forced him to consider the names A', A", and A"' as originally 3 persons who had performed similar exploits and therefore had, in the course of time, been confounded with each other, and blended by the authors of the myths and stories into one person A. As best he can, Saxo tries to resolve the mythical product, composed in his opinion of historical elements, and to distribute the exploits attributed to A between A', A'', and A"'. It may also be that one or more of the stories attributed to A were found more or less varied in different sources. In such cases he would report the same stories with slight variations about A', A" and A'". The similarities remaining form ONE important group of indications which he has furnished to guide us, but which can assure us that our investigation is in the right course ONLY when corroborated by indications belonging to other groups or corroborrated in statements preserved in other sources <>. "But in the events which Saxo in this manner relates about A', A" and A"', other persons are also mentioned. We will assume that in the myths and in the heroic poems that these characters have been named B and C. These too have in the songs of the skalds several names and epithets. B has also been called B', B", and B"'. C has also been styled C', C", and C"'. "Out of this one subordinate person B, Saxo, by aid of the abundance of names, makes as many subordinate persons--B', B", and B"'---as he made out of the original chief person A--that is the chief persons A', A", and A"'. Thus also with C, and in this way we get the following analogies: A' is to B' and C' as A" is to B" is to C" and as A"' is to B'" is to C"' "By comparing all that is related concerning these 9 names, we are enabled gradually to form a more or less correct idea of what the original myth has contained in regard to A, B, and C. If it then happens, as is often the case, that 2 or more of the names A', B' and C' etc are found in the Icelandic or other documents, and there belong to persons whose adventures are in some respects the same and in other respects are made clearer and more complete, by what Saxo tells about A', A" and A"' etc, then it is proper to continue the investigation in the direction thus started. If then, every step brings forth new confirmations from various sources, and if a myth thus restored easily dovetails itself into an epic cycle of myths, and there forms a necessary link in the chain of events, then the investigation has produced the desired result. "An aid in the investigation is not unfrequently the circumstance that the names at Saxo's disposal were not sufficent for all points in the above scheme. We then find analogies which open for us, so to speak, short cuts----for instance, as follows: A' is to B' is to C' as A" is to B' is to C" and as A"' is to B" is to C' The parallels in the above text <<>> are a concrete example of the above scheme. For we have seen--- A=Halfdan, A'=Gram A"=Halfdan Berggram A'"=Halfdan Borgarsson B=Ebbo <> (Ebur, Ibor, Jofurr) B'=Henricus and B'"=Sivarus C doubled in C'=Svipdag and C"=Ericus (Amthelus, Odr, Svipdag, Freya's husband) The above is, believe it or not, a footnote from Teutonic Mythology by Viktor Rydberg translated by Rasmus Anderson 1889. The passage is difficult, but very rewarding when studying Saxo. Other authors have acknowledged and commended Rydberg's work on Saxo (I'll even tell ya who if ya ask!). In Volundarkvida 3, Volund is called Annund. He is brother to the archer Egil. In Saxo, we find an Annundus associated with an archer in 2 places. Coincidence? We find a one-eyed old man named Uggerus (Yggr), and other similar occurances. Sure he historicizes, humanizes, and Christianizes, but he uses the heathen myths as his basis. Look at Saxo in a new light, but only accept as authentic that which can be confirmed by other sources we know as heathen~ That's all Rydberg did and the results are unexpected and amazing, and logical, and epic, and fit naturally, and fill in the blanks, and seemingly restore lost myths, and etc and etc, &c. Wassail, Hodd --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe send w/o quotes "SIGNOFF ASATRU" to LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM If you have questions, write to: ASATRU-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM